Pro open borders? Read this
Wednesday, May 24, 2006
Time : 3:38 PM
t astounds me that so many of my left leaning friends online are so inclined to give people free access across our borders. How they would grant citizenship to someone just because they were sneaky enough to get here. That they make a whole host of excuses why we should just look the other way. Well, aside from the facts they drive down wages for low skilled Americans, get free medical care on the backs of all ready stretched hospital budgets, and demand citizenship ahead of those that have spent years going through the legal process, there is the question of crime. Not such a big deal perhaps for someone living in say Minnesota or Pennsylvania, but for those of us in southern states it is a big deal. According to the LA Times:
- 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
- 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
- Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.
ut numbers such as these are hard to come by. You see in many places jailing and deporting people based on immigration status is against the rules. We can't even keep records of the status of those arrested. Well anyhow, before you go pulling your hair out because you just want to to give these "undocumented immigrants" a big hug, I want you to read this piece by Heather Mac Donald
My head is still spinning...no wait... it's going to explode now that I've read that story. Yikes...I've been thinking of the future...and there isn't going to even be one.
See, this is the stuff our liberal friends aren't considering. Most won't even read that piece. It's not about being xenophobic and racist. It's about being secure and smart about letting people into the country. I wish they would triple the amount of green cards. But have an open border is crazy.
Yeah, they can't round these people up, because they alck the funding and manpower, but they did get those new dune buggies for Bush to ride around and look Dukakish in.
And we can pay mechanics from haliburton subsidaries 100k a year to fix humvees, and we make the army mechanics infantry soldiers.
your point of view got me thinking.............
i did some reading up on ms heather macdonald. seems like i think she's a t**t and i don't use that type of thinking lightly.
here is an example of what she thinks of 'gadfly feminist' women Feminists Get Hysterical
I think Estrich was wrong on that one, I've read about this story before and i think she was out of bounds. It's a matter of having many talented writers that want to be published, not about male female quotas. Why do you think she is on FOX? Because she stands out as a flake quite often.
I don't buy the crap about the health care as much as they are selling it. It smacks of the GOP trying to tell me the estate tax hurts our farmers.
You can't tell me that there are 11 million illegals lining up at emergency rooms and clinics sucking up free care....I'm sure there are cases where it occurs but I just don't buy it to the degree they are selling it.
Wages yes, but that isn't b/c of illegals, that is the people that hire them and the government that doesn't enforce....
Donviti, I rwad alot and seen interviews on TV with hospital adminstrators and doctors. It's a crisis. Hospitals are closing down ,leaving the ones that remain open under even more burden. Where do you think these people are getting their health care? The only place that can't turn them away... emergency rooms.One thing that was also said is that they are doing work that produces frequent injury... farming, construction, etc. Do you know how much a broken arm costs without health insurance? More than that worker makes in a year.
LOC, simmer down a minute. When you start with your "what liberals don't see" and all that, you are engaging in the same sloppy,malicious mischaracterizations that people like Malkin are known for. You are insulting people, and there is no call for that type of crap and I don't care how much you are dear and beloved by me- with this behavior you are a capital F FUCKTARD.
1. You did not correctly describe the supposed liberal position 2. You cannot make assumptions about positions or WHAT INFORMS them by lazy label slinging 3. You cannot assume that there is a failure to see, read, know,or comprehend just because somebody has a different opinion. 4. There are reports out that indicate that there is no correlation between numbers of illegal immigrants and employment figures. The Cato Institute is one, and there are seven major groups that have supported those findings. And let's face it, places like Cato are not liberal.Now I myself have not stated my agreement or not with those reports. it doesn't matter anyway because you will just go by what you see in front of you as all "studies" are just stupid. Research is for pussypants elitists and has no value! Only talking out one's ass has value to REAL MEN. Yeah I get it already.Moving on....
5.What is a warrant? A request to appear to be charged. Wouldn't it make sense that illegal immigrants would be less likely to come forward in general? The point is not to DO NOTHING the point is WHY RIGHT NOW when we are at war? Why can't you wall-builders answer that one simple point? WHY RIGHT NOW.Immigration has been going on for decades. WHY NOW. Oh yeah! Elections. I suppose this stuff works. Apparently.
6. When you say stupid shit like how liberals want to hug every illegal immigrant, you are revealing that you do not understand the counter positions. The point has never been to do NOTHING about immigration, and yet you repeatedly paint the liberal position that way. You have yet to actually point for point identify the different proposals and the merit (pros and cons) of each. No side by side comparisons, nothing. Just "hug immigrants" rhetoric. You should know better.
All I have seen you do is sling shit around to no eventual gain, and insult people by simplifying their views ERRONEOUSLY.
Its like when wingnuts say "What do you have against God?" on school prayer or when people say 'What do you have against discipline" if you oppose child abuse. Or Republicans say Democrats want to "Give Bin laden therapy". Its just nonsense designed to reduce the debate into the domains of the lowest common denominators in society. Make it about hugging immigrants because it saves the trouble of READING and understanding the different positions.
Little has revealed your bias and dislike for real discourse as much as these threads.
You should call yourself "Left of Fox, But Thats Not Saying Much".
Watching Dr. Phil doesn't make you a therapist and watching some doctor on CNN talk about TB does not mean you can accurately describe the costs per year of health care for immigrants. You also cannot conclude that the burden of uninsured care provided is to illegal immigrants. Maybe in some southern places. Oddly enough it seems to cost much less to get a broken arm fixed elsewhere but then again they have less white people suing for malpractice. But thats probably not related to the high costs here, huh?
There is A LOT of research that shows NO relationship between immigration and the current health care crisis. There are about six other factors before immigration is even considered as a factor!
You also did not get the subtext of the TB issue. What happens if the person walks out of the hospital? Hundreds could be exposed! What does THAT cost? You need to base a case on facts. "immigration rose from x to Y during years______. These are the costs attributed specifically to the care of illegal immigrants. This is what illegal immigrants contribute each year via taxes and sales tax. This is the difference." Blah blah blah.
Show that hospitals are in crisis BECAUSE of illegal immigration. Don't share what is on tv. Show that they are responsible.
You're right, I do generalize alot when talking about how liberals just like to call people like myself Xenophobes and racsist. I can't concieve how giving 11 million or so people free health care doesnt affect the price of my insurance or the cost incured by our healthcare system. Where the hell does the money come from? Do the CATO studies indicate where? How about somebody actually address and refute my points. In Southern states illegal immigrant crime is a big problem. Thats all I said in this piece. I wish our system wa more fair and equitable for those wanting to come here. I wish more of them could do it legaly. But before we can tell who qualifies, we have to control our border. The simple act that all nations do. EB you have yet to concede to any one point I make no matter what evidence I present. While driving to my pet store today I saw an MS13 tag... Wonderful!
I read it a while back and actually posted
When people talk about whether or not to deport, en masse or graduallly, it seems like the answer is pretty clear: deport gradually. Start with the guy in the photo on your post and then work your way up. In the meantime, everyone else can start getting busy with their documentation.
Isn't this obvious?
I had quoted an article from the LA times about the hullabaloo about emergency rooms being flooded with "illegals" the la times reported on research that showed it wasn't the case.
I will dig it up for you...
You're generalizing when you say all liberals are in favor of granting amnesty to the immigrants. That's no more true than it is to say all conservatives identify with the Religious Right. I think this issue is seen differently depending on what area of the country a person lives in and their experience with illegal immigrants.
For my part, I live in Michigan and illegal immigration hasn't affected me directly. (I lean left.) However, I'm not in favor of total amnesty for immigrants or employers simply because it creates a double-standard when it comes to our laws.
Let me give you an example: If I pull out of my driveway without my seatbelt on, Michigan police will ticket me $65 for what I consider a minor infraction. That seems pretty extreme compared to illegally sneaking across the border or hiring an illegal, yet the government has virtually turned a blind eye to enforcing those laws. They focus their attention on us law abiding Americans who make easy targets instead.
Anyway, that's my opinion, and the opinion of many of my liberal friends. We feel for the immigrants who want a better life, but they need to abide by our laws just like the rest of us.
Well the trouble comes in the fact that when they DO pay taxes, it goes to the feds but the states on the border are the ones that have to deal with the bulk of the costs to society.
Actually I am not in favor of open borders. I am not in favor of massive deportation either. I am in favor of getting as many people documented and paying taxes as possible not only for our society, but because I think an exploited life in the shadows unable to report crimes, injuries, and rapes SUCKS.
I DO get two major Dobbs points. That without control, reform is meaningless. Second, that these are TWO THINGS here. Immigration and National Security. Trouble is the terrorists can and have come in just as easily from the North. I think the immigration issue is valid and important, but I think we are broke and in the middle of war. I question the timing, and the expense of this wall, given the potential savings.
Yes, LOC I will concede that something needs to be done. But "symbolic gestures" are just that. Symbolic.
I also do not like to be labelled and generalized.
some of what I've found:
I can't find the article I am speaking about, but I can acknowledge that illegals are going to emergency room for care. The real crisis is the fact that so many Legal Americans don't have health care....that is the real problem, the illegals are adding to it yes, but the people that are citizens in this country don't even get coverage. They go bankrupt, go without all the same things that illegals do.
I guess I just look at it and say the GOP has successfully moved the issue away from the real problem, created a distracting wedge issue that the whole country gets behind and forgets about all the disgusting corruption going on under their administration...
You know as well as I do the media always misses the real issue. Morons like Lou Dobbs hawking his book spewing bs....
... I never thought I would read something like this from the center-left. Very well thought out. I found your blog at Sappho's and decided to come in for a peek. Great postings, interesting themes,... a nice mix of centrist and left policies... good niche.
I am a center right libertarian,.. you are always welcomed in my neck of the blogosphere. Kudos!
Actually, not to be all rude and stuff, they have proven that this is a fraud. They contacted the LA Times and were told this was NOT something they printed. After checking the stats on this, it was also found that these stats were fraudulant.
Black Coffee has the article on his blog, I can not find the exact link and YES the guy is a Christioan, but they did do some research and found that the information is not correct.
Don't buy into some of the crap people are selling. Do you know that statistically speaking, LEGAL Americans are a MUCH bigger drain on the medical system than illegals are?
Even as liberals, you should ALWAYS check your facts. Its too easy now a days to get dragged into one side or the other and quite honestly at this moment in time, the right wing and the left wing are both wing nuts...